[...] relationship is always a product of double description.
It is correct [...] to begin to think of the two parties to the interaction as two eyes, each giving a monocular view of what goes on and, together, giving a binocular view in depth.
This double view is the relationship.
Relationship is not internal to the single person. It is nonsense to talk about 'dependency' or 'aggresiveness' or 'pride', and so on. All such words have their roots in what happens between persons, not in some something-or-other inside a person.
Only if you hold on tight to the primacy and priority of relationship can you avoid dormitive explanations. The opium does not contain a dormitive principle, and the man does not contain an aggressive instinct.
[I came to understand] that I will get nowhere by explaining prideful behaviour, for example, by referring to an individual's 'pride'. Nor can you explain aggression by referring to instinctive (or even learned) 'aggressiveness'.
Such an explanation, which shifts attention from the interpersonal field to a factitious inner tendency, principle, instinct, or whatnot, is, I suggest, very great nonsense which only hides the real questions.
If you want to talk about, say, 'pride', you must talk about two persons or two groups and what happens between them.
The same is true of 'dependency', 'courage', 'passive-aggressive behaviour', 'fatalism', and the like. All characterlogical adjectives are to be reduced or expanded to derive their definitions from patterns of interchange, i.e., from combinations of double description.
[Gregory Bateson]
Mind and Nature, p. 146-7
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Small Part/Large System
Addiction: the Long and Short of it
"Laziness" (and other fictions)
Showing posts with label communication. Show all posts
Showing posts with label communication. Show all posts
What are you selling?
Well, I tried to tell them nice as I could, but I had to explain to them that you don't go out to the Indians with something to sell, not religion, not politics, not modern science or products or anything else, because that's not where it's at when you're dealing with Indians.The white man's always got to be selling something - peddle, peddle, peddle, proselytize and propagandize.
Maybe that's why you people here can learn a thing or two, because you don't have anything to sell.
[Doug Boyd]
Rolling Thunder, p.83
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Daily training in the Art of Peace allows your inner divinity to shine brighter and brighter. Do not concern yourself with the right and wrong of others. Do not be calculating or act unnaturally.
Keep your mind set on the Art of Peace, and do not criticize other teachers or traditions. The Art of Peace never restrains, restricts, or shackles anything. It embraces all and purifies everything.
[Morihei Ueshiba]
The Art of Peace, p.50
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Rules of Engagement
Projecting a Shadow
Search the Depths
Rules of Engagement
[...] In order to convince another of a truth that conflicts with an error he holds firmly, the first rule to be observed is an easy and natural one, namely:
Let the premisses come first, and the conclusion follow.
This rule, however, is seldom observed, and people go to work the reverse way, since zeal, hastiness, and dogmatic positiveness urge us to shout out the conclusion loudly and noisily at the person who adheres to the opposite error.
This easily makes him shy and reserved, and he then sets his will against all arguments and premisses, knowing already to what conclusion they lead.
Therefore we should rather keep the conclusion wholly concealed and give only the premisses distinctly, completely, and from every point of view.

If possible, we should not even express the conclusion at all. It will appear of its own accord necessarily and legitimately in the reason of the hearers, and the conviction thus born within them will be all the more sincere; in addition, it will be accompanied by self-esteem instead of by a feeling of shame.
[...] In defending a thing, many people make the mistake of confidently advancing everything imaginable that can be said in its favour, and of mixing up what is true, half true, and merely plausible.
But the false is soon recognized, or at any rate felt, and then casts suspicion even on the cogent and true that is advanced along with it.
Therefore let us give the cogent and true pure and alone, and guard against defending a truth with grounds and arguments that are inadequate, and are thus sophistical, in so far as they are set up as adequate.
For the opponent upsets these, and thus gains the appearance of having upset also the truth itself that is supported by them; in other words he brings forward argumenta ad hominem as argumenta ad rem.
[Arthur Schopenhauer]
The World as Will and Representation, Volume II, p.119
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Related posts:-
Battles and Challenges
Meme against Meme
What are you selling?
Let the premisses come first, and the conclusion follow.
This rule, however, is seldom observed, and people go to work the reverse way, since zeal, hastiness, and dogmatic positiveness urge us to shout out the conclusion loudly and noisily at the person who adheres to the opposite error.
This easily makes him shy and reserved, and he then sets his will against all arguments and premisses, knowing already to what conclusion they lead.
Therefore we should rather keep the conclusion wholly concealed and give only the premisses distinctly, completely, and from every point of view.

If possible, we should not even express the conclusion at all. It will appear of its own accord necessarily and legitimately in the reason of the hearers, and the conviction thus born within them will be all the more sincere; in addition, it will be accompanied by self-esteem instead of by a feeling of shame.
[...] In defending a thing, many people make the mistake of confidently advancing everything imaginable that can be said in its favour, and of mixing up what is true, half true, and merely plausible.
But the false is soon recognized, or at any rate felt, and then casts suspicion even on the cogent and true that is advanced along with it.
Therefore let us give the cogent and true pure and alone, and guard against defending a truth with grounds and arguments that are inadequate, and are thus sophistical, in so far as they are set up as adequate.
For the opponent upsets these, and thus gains the appearance of having upset also the truth itself that is supported by them; in other words he brings forward argumenta ad hominem as argumenta ad rem.
[Arthur Schopenhauer]
The World as Will and Representation, Volume II, p.119
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Battles and Challenges
Meme against Meme
What are you selling?
Communication Breakdown
The mother of one of our patients poured out blame upon her husband for refusing for fifteen years to hand over control of the family finances to her.
The father of the patient said, "I admit that it was a great mistake of me not to let you handle it, I admit that. I have corrected that. My reasons for thinking it was a mistake are entirely different from yours, but I admit that it was a very serious error on my part."
Mother: Now, you're just being facetious.
Father: No, I am not being facetious.
Mother: Well, anyway I don't care because when you come right down to it the debts were incurred, still there is no reason why a person would not be told of them. I think the woman should be told.
Father: It may be the same reason why when Joe (their psychotic son) comes home from school and he has trouble he doesn't tell you.
Mother: Well, that's a good dodge.
The pattern of such a sequence is simply the successive disqualification of each of the father's contributions to the relationship.
He is continuously being told that the messages are not valid. They are received as if they were in some way different from that which he thought he intended.
But, per contra, from her viewpoint, it seems that he is endlessly misinterpreting her, and this is one of the most peculiar characteristics of the dynamic system which surrounds - or is schizophrenia.
The bind becomes mutual. A stage is reached in the relationship in which neither person can afford to receive or emit metacommunicative messages without distortion.
There is, however, usually, an asymmetry in such relationships. This mutual doublebinding is a type of struggle and commonly one or the other has the upper hand. [In cases of families with a psychotic offspring] the asymmetry takes the curious form that the identified patient sacrifices himself to maintain the sacred illusion that what the parent says makes sense.
To be close to that parent, he must sacrifice his right to indicate that he sees any metacommunicative incongruities, even when his perception of these incongruities is correct.
The patient is an accomplice in the parent's unconscious hypocrisy.
The result may be very great unhappiness and very gross, but always systematic, distortions of communication [...] these distortions are always precisely those which would seem appropriate when the victims are faced with a trap to avoid which would be to destroy the very nature of the self.
If somebody attacks the habits and immanent states which characterize me at the given moment of dealing with that somebody [...] they are negating me. If I care deeply about that person, the negation of me will be still more painful.
From theory we may predict that every participant member of such an institution must be defensive of his or her own immanent states of action and enduring adaptive habits; protective, that is, of the self.
I believe that this is the essence of the matter, that the schizophrenic family is an organization with great ongoing stability whose dynamics and inner workings are such that each member is continually undergoing the experience of negation of self.
[Gregory Bateson]
Steps to an Ecology of Mind, p.236-7, 242-3
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They are playing a game.
They are playing at not playing a game.
If I show them I see they are, I shall break the rules and they will punish me.
I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game.
[R.D. Laing]
Knots
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Related posts:-
What's Your Phantasy?
Watch the way you're acting
The father of the patient said, "I admit that it was a great mistake of me not to let you handle it, I admit that. I have corrected that. My reasons for thinking it was a mistake are entirely different from yours, but I admit that it was a very serious error on my part."
Mother: Now, you're just being facetious.
Father: No, I am not being facetious.
Mother: Well, anyway I don't care because when you come right down to it the debts were incurred, still there is no reason why a person would not be told of them. I think the woman should be told.
Father: It may be the same reason why when Joe (their psychotic son) comes home from school and he has trouble he doesn't tell you.
Mother: Well, that's a good dodge.
The pattern of such a sequence is simply the successive disqualification of each of the father's contributions to the relationship.
He is continuously being told that the messages are not valid. They are received as if they were in some way different from that which he thought he intended.
But, per contra, from her viewpoint, it seems that he is endlessly misinterpreting her, and this is one of the most peculiar characteristics of the dynamic system which surrounds - or is schizophrenia.
The bind becomes mutual. A stage is reached in the relationship in which neither person can afford to receive or emit metacommunicative messages without distortion.
There is, however, usually, an asymmetry in such relationships. This mutual doublebinding is a type of struggle and commonly one or the other has the upper hand. [In cases of families with a psychotic offspring] the asymmetry takes the curious form that the identified patient sacrifices himself to maintain the sacred illusion that what the parent says makes sense.
To be close to that parent, he must sacrifice his right to indicate that he sees any metacommunicative incongruities, even when his perception of these incongruities is correct.
The patient is an accomplice in the parent's unconscious hypocrisy.
The result may be very great unhappiness and very gross, but always systematic, distortions of communication [...] these distortions are always precisely those which would seem appropriate when the victims are faced with a trap to avoid which would be to destroy the very nature of the self.
If somebody attacks the habits and immanent states which characterize me at the given moment of dealing with that somebody [...] they are negating me. If I care deeply about that person, the negation of me will be still more painful.
From theory we may predict that every participant member of such an institution must be defensive of his or her own immanent states of action and enduring adaptive habits; protective, that is, of the self.
I believe that this is the essence of the matter, that the schizophrenic family is an organization with great ongoing stability whose dynamics and inner workings are such that each member is continually undergoing the experience of negation of self.
[Gregory Bateson]
Steps to an Ecology of Mind, p.236-7, 242-3
................................................................................................................................................................................
They are playing a game.
They are playing at not playing a game.
If I show them I see they are, I shall break the rules and they will punish me.
I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game.
[R.D. Laing]
Knots
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Related posts:-
What's Your Phantasy?
Watch the way you're acting
The Space Between
The transitional space in which the child plays, or the adult talks, is, in Winnicott's view, 'an intermediate area of experiencing to which inner reality and external life both contribute', and it exists as 'a resting-place for the individual engaged in the perpetual task of keeping inner and outer reality separate yet inter-related'.
Transitional space breaks down when either inner or outer reality begins to dominate the scene, just as a conversation stops if one of the participants takes over.
At the very beginning, when the infant begins to be able to acknowledge that his monologue is, in fact, a dialogue, he needs this 'intermediate state between [his] inability and growing ability to recognize and accept reality', what Winnicott now refers to in the terms of his own developmental theory as 'the substance of illusion, that which is allowed to the infant, and which in adult life is inherent in art and religion'.
This is a long way from Freud's view of culture as the sublimation of instinctual life, or the wishful compensation for the frustrations imposed by reality.
In the Freudian scheme, culture signifies instinctual renunciation; for Winnicott it was the only medium for self-realization.
What Winnicott rather misleadingly calls 'shared reality' is constituted by the sharing of illusions. Shared reality is the area of overlap between those individual preoccupations that Winnicott calls illusions, not because they are false but because they combine the desired with the actual in tolerable ways.
'If we wish,' he writes, 'we may collect together and form a group on the basis of the similarity of our illusory experiences. This is the natural root of grouping among human beings.'
[Adam Phillips]
Winnicott, p.119
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Create or consume?
Dreams from Dreams
Alone with my Self
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